Suit Weights (and modesty), a history.

Really interesting thread on men's suit weights, sans photographs, from "Derek Guy", who frequently comments under that pseudonym on fashion.

derek guy @dieworkwear

Oct 6

Men's dress shirts used to be considered underwear, not to be seen except for the collar and cuffs. In "respectable" company, a man wore a waistcoat over his dress shirt, and then a tailored jacket over that. The jacket also had layers: haircloth, canvas, felt, and lining.

It's important to note that these were very heavy fabrics. Harrison's of Edinburgh, my favorite fabric merchant, once made custom fabrics for Andrew Carnegie. In their archives, you can find materials they made for Carnegie's summer wardrobe. The weight? 510 grams per sq. meter

To give you context, 510 gram wool today is typically reserved for a topcoat or heavy winter suit (like the brown coat you see below). This is what men wore in the *summer* back in the day. Average ready-to-wear suit today is maybe 255 gram cloth — half the weight.

Here's a gray Donegal tweed suit designed for winter. I think the weight is around 450 grams. This is lighter than what Carnegie would have worn in the summer. He would have also been shocked by the lack of a waistcoat. It would be like walking around with your pant fly open.

This practice changed over 100 years from mid-18th to mid-19th century. This transformation happened as buildings adopted central heating and society became less uptight/ more liberal. Still, when you watch old films, such as The Man in the Gray Flannel Suit or The Apartment you still see men mostly keep their jackets on while indoors. Again, remember these are not like your trucker or field jackets — they have multiple layers inside them for structure (haircloth, canvas, felt) and were made from heavier materials than what's typically worn today

This is why I thought it was interesting to see Dale Partridge harp about modesty while wearing a t-shirt. This would have been unthinkable to a man in the early 20th century.

A friend of mine who teaches theology shared with me a post about CS Lewis's Mere Christianity, which discusses foundational Christian logic across denominations. It reminded me of Dale's tweet below, and I wanted to share some thoughts here regarding modesty and respectability, x.com/dalepartridge/…

A friend of mine who teaches theology shared with me a post about CS Lewis's Mere Christianity, which discusses foundational Christian logic across denominations. It reminded me of Dale's tweet below, and I wanted to share some thoughts here regarding modesty and respectability, which often become hot topics on Twitter. 

Let's first visit the excerpts. Adapted from a series of BBC radio talks he delivered during the last few years of the Second World War, CS Lewis's Mere Christianity touches on some big topics — the meaning of the universe, Christians beliefs, and what is considered proper Christian behavior. Regarding behavior, there's a chapter on sexual morality that begins with one of the least popular Christian virtues: modesty. Here's what CS Lewis had to say:

Lewis points out something interesting here: modesty has to be understood within the matter of context. A woman in the Pacific Islands, he notes, can be modest while wearing barely any clothes, while a Victorian woman will have different standards for the same idea. 

In my original reply to Dale, I noted that he was wearing a thin jersey t-shirt, which revealed the outline of his nipple (a well-known erogenous zone, even for men). The t-shirt, of course, was once considered underwear. In the 19th century, a proper gentleman would have worn a coat and waistcoat — the shirt was hardly ever seen except for the collar and cuffs. In the 20th century, the waistcoat was eventually dropped, but the button-up shirt remained. It wasn't until about the 1940s and 50s that it became increasingly common to see men wearing t-shirts in public. The style ascended partly because it was sexually suggestive (think of Marlon Brando in The Wild One). 

Of course, no one thinks t-shirts are underwear anymore, and it's no longer considered improper to wear one in public. The same is true of leggings. Most people would be shocked if a woman appeared in public in her actual underwear (by today's definition). Unless they were being performative, no one would act that way when they see a woman dressed like that on the right. Thus, modesty has to be contextual. 

Let's move on with the rest of the passage. 

Lewis recognizes that modesty raises thorny issues, but he sweeps them aside to focus on the more important spirit. I want to bring your attention to the last sentence: "A real desire to believe all the good you can of others and to make others as comfortable as you can will solve most of the problems." 

This reminds me of Cardinal John Henry Newman's book Definition of a Gentleman (which, like CS Lewis's Mere Christianity, is adapted from a series of lectures). I often cite Newman's book because it's so instructive. The term gentleman is so overwrought and frequently abused, but to the degree it means anything at all, I think Newman captures it here:

On Twitter, there are often debates about how to dress respectably (and the importance of doing so). These discussions usually get uncomfortable because they touch on class and race. Just this morning, I saw someone say they are glad young black men are "wearing quarter zips" and putting away "Jordans," which they say are associated with "ratchet behavior." 

On matters of respectable dress, it's helpful to separate two distinct acts. The first is how you decide to dress; the second is how you judge others by their dress. It's true that the world judges us based on appearance. And if you wish to show respect in certain contexts — such as attending a wedding or funeral — it's worth considering what your attire is communicating. This is why I think people should shop for a suit well in advance of when they need one. You don't want to be the guy wearing a weird outfit during those important occasions, as they can send the wrong message (e.g., "I don't care about you"). 

But then there's the second decision: how you judge others based on their dress. If being gentlemanly means anything at all, it should mean what Newman outlines above. Or what Lewis wrote in Mere Christianity: "A real desire to believe all the good you can of others and to make others as comfortable as you can will solve most of the problems." There are two acts here: how you decide to dress (e.g., making others feel comfortable) and how you treat others (e.g., "desire to believe all the good you can of others"). 

My friend and fellow menswear writer Bruce Boyer is fond of saying that clothes are more important than most people think, but less important than fashion people think. I'm of the same mind. I think it's perfectly fine to use the language of clothing. But on issues such as respectability and morality, I think you should judge people by their deeper, more important actions. That doesn't mean how they dress, but rather how they treat others on a more meaningful level. 

Anyway, I will probably reference CS Lewis's book in the future. Thanks to M for the reference.

To be clear, I don't care what people wear and I don't believe in dress respectability. We're also on a global platform, so ppl here live in different countries. But for much of the 20th cent., it was not unusual for a man to wear a jacket indoors, whether tailored or casualwear

I should have added, since I know people will jump to "global warming." While I acknowledge that global warming exists, the average temp has increased about 3 Fahrenheit degrees from early 20th cent to now. While this has meaningful impact on glaciers, it makes little difference on whether someone can wear a jacket (excluding, of course, the days with extreme swings). 

People simply have different standards for how comfortable they expect to be at all times. This, along with the adopting of central heating, is the bigger reason why men today mostly walk around in t-shirts.

I should note that I don't walk around in t-shirts.  I did when I was young but haven't for a long time.

I should also note that I failed to wear a tie for the first time in a long time at a deposition.  I just forgot the tie.  I almost felt naked really.

I'm curious on what others think of Guy's thesis here.