CliffsNotes of the Zeitgeist 158th Edition. How the Internet Emphases the Absurd and Marginal and Make it seem Significant. Pastor Brian Sauvé

Holy Women at Christ's Tomb, Annibale Carracci.

One Brian Sauvé, senior pastor at Refuge Church in Ogden, Utah, has been much on the net recently due to some comments he made on vlog or some sort of web based video show providing for all to see how the net has served to emphasize the absurd and marginal, serving to make it seem like a big deal.

Refuge Church is a "Reformed Protestant" Church and Sauvé  describes himself as "Reformed and Protestant, Paedobaptist, Postmillennial, and Patriarchal".  The church describes itself as basically a solo scriptura group holding to 66 books of the Bible, rather than 73, which means that the don't believe in the 66 books of the Bible as the New Testament itself describes how sola scriptura is invalid and the omitted books that a German monk, who should never have been that, took out were done so based on his prejudice and a misunderstanding on what books of the Old Testament the Apostles were referring to.

Patriarchal Sauvé certainly is.  And extremely so.

Sauvé in a September 18 podcast stated the following:

Women either shouldn't be on social media or any social media they have should be kind of a walled garden situation where some competent man is curating and blocking and directing and taking a look at what's going on.  I have access to my wife's social media accounts and I have blocked—this is not an exaggeration—thousands of accounts. Thousands of them. She generally has very little idea of what is going on in the real social media because I've created a walled garden of cute goat videos.

We have normalcy bias in a certain direction.  We consider normal what is actually insane. We consider normal women having unsupervised access to one another all the time. That's not normal.

We consider normal women having political rule. We consider normal women living unattached from a male—like a father, then a husband—for lengthy periods of time. You could fill in the blank with all of these modern feminist outworkings of the original feminist vision and what they've done is they've made women anxious, psychotic, depressed, miserable, and genocidally evil. And we just go, "Oh, that's normal.'"

People are going to hear me talking about, as my wife's head, monitoring her social media, and they're going to be like, "Brian is such a tyrant." You have normalcy bias for insane world. You're living in an insane asylum and you think it's the normal world and I'm saying, "No, we don't live in the insane asylum. We do what people did for thousands of years before today."

The interview went on and discussed how "crazy" it was to allow women to vote, something Hegseth fan boy has said of Doug Wilson in Idaho.

Unlike Wyoming, the least religious state in the country, Utah is the most religious state in the Union, and its religious landscape is dominated by the Latter Day Saints.  It's not as Mormon as it once was, however, with about 55% of the residents of the state being in that faith.  Culturally, however, they dominate it.  Catholics are about 5%.  About 25% claim no particular faith.The rest are mostly some sort of Protestant but there are, of course, Jews, Muslims, etc.

About 63% of the residents of Ogden are LDS.  Catholics make up almost 9% of the population there.  The rest would mostly be some sort of Protestant.

We'd note that Mormons, which Sauvé is not, are extremely socially conservative generally.  That's important to note as while, at least in my experience, Mormons and some conservative Protestant religions do not get along, the overall cultural conservatism of Mormonism heavily impacts the Jello Belt.  I'm not saying that to be mean or critical.  Utah has some of the most well kept towns, including small towns, in the country and as a rule Mormons don't go in for the weird cultural silliness that is part of the current zeitgeist.  Without condoning the tenants of their faith, their faith also causes them to have what some folks refer to as "nice families", as other conservative religious groups sometimes to.  You'd probably have to get into Traditional Catholics in order to find a similarly family oriented well kept group of people.

The Culture of a People reflects upon the place they live.  The views that Sauvé are not all that radical in the locality in which he is speaking them, as they reflect sort of broadly on the LDS, and specifically on some of the LDS, although most LDS would not hold them to the extreme that he does.

Now, as should be obvious, Pastor Sauvé is extremely socially conservative.  Why should we care?

We shouldn't.

The church is indicated as having a "mid sized" congregation.  His congregation ought to care what he thinks, and chances are they believe exactly what he does.  This sort of extreme patriarchal view is quite limited and goes way beyond what even very conservative members of various other Christian faiths typically believe.  It's also ironic in that women more than men were the foundation of the early Faith.  Women brought men to it. There's a reason that Mary Magdalene is the "Apostle to the Apostles".  And there's a reason that St. Brigid is so closely associated with St. Patrick.

But then, I'm an Apostolic Christian where strong women are the norm.  Protestants can keep John Calvin, we'll take Joan d'Arc.

And Protestants can keep telling us that we shouldn't ask Mary for help, we're going to keep doing so.

Virgin Mary at Zetum

Such a diminished view of women is odd, and sad.

It's also cultural and malformed.

But here's the thing.  It's the Internet that has given voice to stuff like this. But for that, Sauve would be an unknown Protestant Pastor in the Jello Belt.  Probably a lot of people in his own city wouldn't be able to tell you anything about him.  I couldn't tell you anything about the two large warehouse type churches' pastors here.  I'm sure that there are Protestants around here who hold the same beliefs.  I just don't know who they are, and there aren't many of them.

The Internet is really giving voice to a lot of things, ideas and people who shouldn't have one.  I don't know if Sauve was known before, but there's a whole host of like minded Protestants who show up on blogs all the time and spark Internet outrage. That outrage then circulates their message.

It's the same with people like Nick Fuentes, whose message is political and not religious, although there is some of that mixed in.  But for the Internet, he'd just be a barely employed oddball.  

It's one of the real challenges of our time.  We need to ignore these people.  They don't deserve a national audience.

Last edition:

CliffsNotes of the Zeitgeist 157th Edition. Press Revolt and other matters.

Labels: 1780s, 1789, 2020s, 2026, Abolitio nominis, Dancing, Donald Trump, Food, John Barrasso, Lies, Petroleum, The Press, The Second Trump Administration, Trump, Trump War Inflation, Washington DC Vandalization

CliffsNotes of the Zeitgeist 146th Edition. What does the SAVE Act, Groypers, A coup in progress, Dominionism, Women staying barefoot and pregnant, and the Lumpenproletariat have in common? A movement, it's leaders, and it's really dim backers. Even more labels.

A visit by a candidate.

With the primaries just a month away, I was visited at the front door by a politician for the first time.  A local candidate who has run once before.  He's been to the door before, and didn't recall it.

It's interesting in part because he doesn't remember me, pretty clearly, but I know him. He was in my high school graduating class and was one of those guys who was on the periphery of my circle of friends.  Indeed, he was one of those odd very nice people you know that aren't quite within anyone's circle of friends, but almost are, so they're like satellites, sort of.  Something that I recall about him from back then is that he was in amazingly good shape and was the only male gymnast I knew.  He still appears to be in amazingly good shape.

What I also recall about him is that he was one of the very few far right Evangelical Christians that I knew in those days.  Wyoming is the least religious state in the United States and Evangelicalism, as the time, was very rare.  In my actual circle of friends everyone was either Catholic, Mormon, or Mainline Protestant, but I'd also note that the Mainline Protestants were not very observant, if you will.  Or, more properly, they weren't very church going, with some exceptions, of course.

That was typical for Wyoming at the time.

Anyhow, I've had a belly full of the far right in this state and last time anyone campaign related showed up, young people paid, most likely, to distribute WFC propaganda, I gave one of them such a blistering that I could tell he was scared.

He deserved it, punk.

Anyhow, I was nice this time.  Can't be harsh to an old classmate.

On the change here, at this point my old classmate has more company, really  One of the things about the the last large oil boom is it brought in a flood of people. Usually, in the past, when oil booms ended those people went home, which was often home to Texas and Oklahoma. This time lots of them didn't, for a variety of reasons I suspect.  One is that the landing of the economic crash was softer.  Another was that winters have been much warmer.  Winter used to drive a lot of people flat out away.

Anyhow, many of these people were Bible Belt protestants and they often appear not to realize that they're a tiny minority of the world's Christians.  Indeed, not only are they are minority, but they often hold views that in early eras of Christianity would have been regarded as heretical.  Heretics, we might note, were often extremely aggressive about spreading heresy, and often these folks are pretty aggressive about their views, which of course is their right.

One such example shows up in an editorial by Campbell County legislator John Bear.  Bear is a member of the WFC and a member of a tiny Evangelical denomination.  He's a carpetbagger from Missouri.  He wrote an editorial to the Cowboy State Daily complaining that on the county's 4th of July parade his organization, whatever that was, had been precluded from handing out copies of the Constitution and the Bible.  People from up there, in seeing his post, wrote back that 1) the parade was dedicated to the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution or Christianity, 2) that they in fact did pass out New Testaments and copies of the Constitution.

I don't know what actually happened but I'll admit that if I'd been there and somebody handed me out copies of either, and of course I am an Christian, I'd be uneasy.  Partially I'd be uneasy as this group of people have a low regard for the real Constitution and have a view of Christianity that is minoritarian and aggressive.  Their Bibles, additionally, omit part of the Canon of the Bible, and they tend not to even know that.

I also am cautious here as frankly this group gives Christianity a bad name, in my view.  One of their members, since voted out of office, but trying to get back in, asserted during a legislative session that we are not our brother's keeper.  A pastor associated with the movement was one of the primary opponents of the bill to raise the marriage age to something rational, and you couldn't help but feel really uneasy about that.  There's nothing in Christianity that says it's nifty for girls younger than 16 years of age to get married.

On that, I've recently been amused by some editorials, and I'll be vague on them, by the same protestant pastor heaping praise on somebody he probably doesn't know lost his family due to screwing his secretary and then trying to claim that his children understood in a public setting they were at.

They didn't.

Anyhow, the changing religious landscape here has had an impact on politics, and not in a good way, even if I'm glad that people are attending some church.

One regional politician who I'm sure attends not a church, but a stake center, is Deseret Mike Lee.  Lee is a radical right wing populist.  He posts constantly about the SAVE act and stuff like that, but I really wonder how much people really know about him.

John D. Lee.

Lee is a direct descendant of John D. Lee, one of the key figures of the Mountain Meadows Massacre of 1857.  Mike Lee even bears a pretty close resemblance to his ancestor facially.

John D. Lee was a Mormon zealot in the LDS's early days.  He was also a central figure in the early LDS of that day.  He was not just some LDS immigrant to Utah.  We've discussed Mountain Meadows elsewhere, but it was a flat out murderous slaughter in the name of religion of a type that you very rarely actually see.  People often claim that occurs, but reality, it's phenomenally rare.  Here's an actual example.

Lee was eventually charged with murder in 1874.  He was executed at Mountain Meadows for his crimes in 1877.  The LDS have always maintained that they were not responsible for the murders in an organized way.  I.e., they've always maintained that the church didn't sanction or commend the killings to occur.  They may very well not have, and given the factors of time and distance of the 19th Century, they likely did not.  Still, it took two decades for the cries of the murdered to be addressed and there's always been some lingering suspicion that Lee was a scapegoat.  That's more or less the view taken by the Netflix series American Primeval, which while a historical drama doesn't pretend to be strict history.  Brigham Young is portrayed as a really bad guy in it.

John D. Lee nineteen wives and fifty six children, which is flat out absurd. Eleven of Lee's wives left him during the course of their marriages.

One of those fifty six children was John Doyle Lee, born in 1851, before Mountain Meadows.  His mother was Lovina Lee who had married John D. in 1847.  That same year, John D. married Mary Lee, her sister.  Both Lovina and Mary are buried in a the same plot in Arizona, where the John D. family ultimately located.

John Doyle Lee was one of eleven children by two wives. His first wife died at age 31.  He was an Arizona rancher.  One of those children was Rex Lee, who died in 1934 in a hunting accident, leaving his second wife (his first had died) pregnant.  She would name their son Rex Lee.  She would remarry and have three more children.

Rex Lee, the younger, became a prominent Republican politician, lawyer and BYU academic.  He served as United States Solicitor under Ronald Reagan.  Mike Lee, his son, has sort of followed his path in that he's also an academic, lawyer and Republican politician.

Mike Lee, while it's been nearly 150 years since his great, great grandfather's death, appears to have acquired not only his facial appearance, but a certain type of zealotry.

It's hard to say this without instantly being accused of being bigoted.  The truth is, however, that the LDS are a much more diverse religion than people think they are.  Many Mormon "beliefs" aren't canon at all, and are more in the nature of theological opinions.  It's not really the case, for instance, that all Mormons are polytheists.  Even regular common practices, like abstaining from caffeinated beverages, aren't really church law.As a result, you can have fairly devout Mormons who don't hold those views.  You can also have those who very strictly hold the traditional views.  The deeper you go into the Jello Belt the more common the really traditional views, save for Salt Lake City, ironically, which has a majority non Mormon population.

I don't know Mike Lee personally, but there's every sign that he holds the very traditional views, one of which is that there's a finite number of souls that were created at the bigging of the creation of our world, and that the sooner they all get on the Earth, the second coming will arrive.  

Now, Mike Lee has only three children, so that cuts against this argument somewhat.  But he also is a pro development zealot that is sort of explained by this.  Lee would rape every square inch of the West if allowed to.  Houses, mines, whatever, you name it, he's for it.

And he holds sort of a pan West view of this, which fits into his heritage.  Originally the LDS hoped for their own state, the State of Deseret, which would have included a much greater expanse of the West than Utah.

Lee had a fit recently went the Pentagon didn't include the LDS as a Christian religion, which it isn't, in the list of Christian religions.  It was pretty clear that Lee felt betrayed, which he wasn't.  The Pentagon went back and fibbed for him, the GOP rewarding him for his loyalty, but changing that.

The views Lee holds about public lands and the West aren't really limited to the LDS by any means, we should note.  James Watt, Reagan's Secretary of the Interior, believed that the Second Coming was going to come extremely soon so there should be no holding back on using every resource immediately.  No need to conserve anything.

We're still here, of course, and Watt is dead.

Watt received a fair amount of portrayal as a weirdo.  That must have pained other Evangelicals who didn't hold his views and I suspect there's a fair number of LDS who feel the same way about Lee.  Likewise, there's probably a fair number of Christians up in Campbell County who feel that John Bear doesn't speak for them.

Indeed, this raises the interesting point of outliers defining a group to outsiders.  Mitt Romney is probably more representative of the views of most Mormons than Mike Lee, but most Americans don't know anything about the LDS and by 2028 Mike Lee is going to seem like the definition of a Mormon to many people.

I get stuff like this in regard to being a Catholic, often by people who really hate Catholics.  "You must be one of ten children".  Nope, I'm of one.  Just yesterday a colleague I've worked with for nearly 40 years, and who has asked me about grade school before, was in a conversation with another colleague who is moving their children out of the local Catholic school. She and her husband are not Catholic.  My old colleague turned to me and said "you went to St. A's" 

No, I didn't.  Neither did any of my numerous Catholic cousins.  I'm a practicing Catholics and, therefore, I guess it must be the case that I went to Catholic school. 

A minor example.

I'm not going to vote for my old colleague.  He doesn't appear to fit into the WFC, but I can't really tell what he's for.  He's for jobs, which everyone says.  

And I like our serving representative, who is definitely not a WFC member.

The candidate visiting got me to thinking about another person who sort of was in the orbit of my circle of friends back in those days.  She was a quiet and mousy friend of the sister of one of my friends.  I had a crush on the sister.  Later she reappeared in the orbit in law school, as she was the friend of a girl I was dating and just somebody in the class behind me.  I got to know here somewhat better then.  The very definition of a preppy, people in her circle called her "muffy" as sort of derogative nickname.

After law school she came back to Casper and practiced here for awhile. Something happened, I don't  know what, and she not only left the practice of law, but actually took the extraordinary step of contacting the bar and having her name removed from the list of those barred.  I.e., she not only was a practicing lawyer who wanted on the inactive list, she wanted off the list entirely.  She's the only person I've ever know to do that.

After she left, she went back to Kansas where she'd graduated as an undergrad and worked in basically a clerical job.  I lost track of her, but looked her up sometime last year. Too late, she'd died of cancer at age 58.  She'd never married.  Her obituary states she  "will be remembered for her commitment to 4-H and her love of rabbits."  I actually hadn't known she was in 4-H, or that she loved rabbits.

Churches of the West: LDS church would get sacred site, Martin’s Cove, under proposed BLM land trade now gaining steam

Churches of the West: LDS church would get sacred site, Martin’s Cove, u...:   LDS church would get sacred site, Martin’s Cove, under proposed BLM land trade now gaining steam

LDS church would get sacred site, Martin’s Cove, under proposed BLM land trade now gaining steam

 

LDS church would get sacred site, Martin’s Cove, under proposed BLM land trade now gaining steam

Lex Anteinternet: Sunday Morning Scene. Religion in the military. A resolution?

Lex Anteinternet: Sunday Morning Scene. Religion in the military.: The Department of Defense scaled back its list of recognized religions.   There were 211, now there are 31.  Here is the full list: Agnostic...

And a happy ending, or at least an ending, occurred to this story when the Pentagon redid its classifications to read as follows:

It's actually not a bad reclassification, although a person does hae to wonder why, in order to make a non Christian religion happy, the Christian identification was taken away from actual Christian religions.

One of the major newspapers ran statistics for the various religions in terms of the what percentage of the military is comprised of them. While there are Mormons in the military, the percentage is infanticidally small.  As noted earlier, however, there would be units in the military that would be heavily made up of Mormons, principally Guard and Reserve units in Utah.  Their spiritual needs would be different than those of Christian religions, however, which would gain importance in a large scale war.

According to exit polls form the last general election, 64% of Mormons voted for Trump in the last election.  20% voted for Harris.  56% of Catholics did, with 41% voting for Harris.  Catholics are a much larger demographic than Mormons and Trump has interestingly shown little concern about enormously offending them.  68% of Southern Baptists, the largest Protestant religion in the country, went for Trump.  Southern Baptist, I suspect, are probably the largest Christian denomination to be upset by the reclassification, if they are.

I don't know that I have a strong opinion on the list being reworked to address Mormon concerns, but I would note a couple of oddities about it.  One is that that the U.S. Government didn't define them as Christian, although they seem happy with the result.  The second is that what Trump may say aside, he doesn't love Mormons anymore than he loves anyone else.

Lex Anteinternet: Sunday Morning Scene. Religion in the military. The back currents of religion in the Trump administration and the New Apostolic Reformation.

Lex Anteinternet: Sunday Morning Scene. Religion in the military.: The Department of Defense scaled back its list of recognized religions.   There were 211, now there are 31.  Here is the full list: Agnostic...

So, in our last installment of this, we sort of defended Pete Hegseth's Department of Defense.  But we have to ask, is there more to this story?

Probably not.  The classification is correct.  Mormons are in fact not Christians in the fashion that Christians would define the faith.  Mormons of course disagree, which is there right.

And some feel that more is going on.

Dem Saints

@LDS_Dems

Under new military guidance from Pete Hegseth, the LDS Church is officially classified as a non-Christian religion. My fellow Saints, you can love these Christian nationalists all you want, but they will not love you back.

6:13 PM · Jun 5, 2026

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"Dem Saints" is a really good and irreverent group made up of Mormon Democrats.

Yes, there are Mormon Democrats.

Branding their irreverence is the use of the "Dem Saints" name, which is really borrowing from Louisiana Catholics, whom minstrels' lampooned with the line "Who dat, who dat, who dat say dey gonna beat dem Saints?"  In the second half of the 20th Century it got picked up as a line boosting the New Orleans Saints football club.

That there are Democratic Mormons shouldn't be surprising.  In most regions of the country they are actually a little known faith, but where they are strongly represented they are in all walks of life and all stations of education.  Most Mormons are fairly conservative of a rule, but in no way shape or form does that mean they're all part of the far right.  "Dem Saints" are probably what used to be regarded as middle of the road Republicans in the West.  Of those I know fairly well, all are in the GOP but none of them are in the far right.

Dem Saints aren't the only ones taking note of this. Deseret Mike Lee, whose radical right wing political positions are highly informed by his being a devout Mormon is absolutely freaking out, noting:

I’m a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints My church membership is inextricably intertwined with my Christianity, as it is for 17 million other Latter-day Saints Regardless of what the Pentagon thinks

Last edited10:01 PM · Jun 6, 2026

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Lee has absolutely hitched his wagon to Donald Trump.  I've written about him here before, but his views are radially different than Dem Saints, and probably for the most part radically different in terms of religious views.  We've discussed Mike Lee in that context before, and won't replough that ground, but a good guess is that Lee, like Mike Johnson and Pete Hegseth, is highly informed and often extremely motivated by a unique religious view of the United States and its mission, as he conceives of it.  He'd fit into a minority group of Mormon's in that sense, just as Hegseth and Johnson do as to Christians.  The difference here is that his view, if I'm correct, and I may not be, would be vastly different than the overwhelming majority of Americans, and probably the majority of Mormons.

Hegseth in particular has been the public face of the New Apostolic Reformation and there's no place for Mormons in it.  For that matter, there's no place for Catholics or Orthodox in it either.

The question is whether Deseret Mike is too besotted with Trump to realize that.  Based on his surprise to this reclassification, which likely isn't motivated by people like Hegseth viewing Mormons as really not counting, it would appear so.

Lee just totally freaked out and posted over 37 time over 24 hours on Twitter.  Eventually he got an audience with Trump on the telephone, and reported back.

Mike Lee

@BasedMikeLee

I just got off the phone with President Trump We discussed the Pentagon’s “Christian list” I won’t speak for him, but I’m thrilled about where this is heading We’re most fortunate that President Trump (1) loves Latter-day Saints, and (2) is our commander in chief Stay tuned

Based on that, Trump will probably issue some babbling change to the list, but the wake up call should already be there.

Trump isn't a religious man.  Trump loves himself and at this point Mormon's don't really matter to him most likely.  He shouldn't presume  that Trump "loves Latter-day Saints" or members of any other religion.  And we're not fortunate that he's the commander in chief.  If he's going to order the list changed, it's to gain a little support from a group right now that's likely shocked, and frankly to address a situation in a state, Utah, that has shown a surprising willingness at the grass roots level to rebel.

But now Lee is out there.  If his shameless sycophantly doesn't pay off, it's a lesson for people who think that Trump is carrying water for you.  He isn't, you are carrying water for him.

And in terms of the back channels in the administration, it's the view of Doug Wilson on what sort of religion the Latter Day Saints is that may matter more than what Trump thinks, who doesn't really have any deep thoughts about religion at all.